乌龙可可：女性主义是很多小事累计起来的启蒙 Wulong Keke: Feminism is an gradual process of accumulation
我是乌龙可可~这个账号聚焦性别平等议题、拆解日常偏见误区，分享一些我在生活工作中的真实感受，期待和更多女性一起成长！愿每一位女性自由且长青。
抖音账号：60194454197
1.你的女性主义启蒙是什么？你是什么时候“觉醒”的？
这个问题我自己也想过很多次，但是好像没有一个“转折性”的觉醒，应该是很多小事累计起来的启蒙。
我翻了过去的日记和微博记录，大概是七八年前有意识的，从发现一些新闻的评论区比新闻本身更可恨，或者是被周围人的发言震撼到的时候开始的吧。
2.你为何会想成为一名女性主义博主？你觉得女性主义博主对中国女权发展的价值是什么？
当做一个发泄口吧，当时身边可以谈论女性主义的朋友也不多，也不知道可以和谁讨论，但是周围又无时无刻不在发生令人无语和愤怒的事情。
最重要的就是网络让更多人看到了问题，意识到“哦原来还可以这样”，再接下去才是慢慢改变。
3.西方女权主义框架并不总能直接套用；哪些概念对你来说是有价值的，哪些是你会主动抵制或重新诠释的？
以西方女权的三波浪潮为例吧，第一波主要是争取基本权利，比如选举权呀受教育权财产权等等，第二波是争取身体自主权和反对同工同酬等等规训歧视，第三波主要是交叉性视角。前两波运动其实还是比较精英主义的，尤其是忽视了不同种族、底层、边缘女性，甚至很多人因为自己的觉醒去批判未觉醒的女性（现在也是）。
对于这类现象，我认为在当今是需要重新思考的，我们需要承认不同处境的女性有不同的思想，需要更多元和包容。以及现在很多人倾向通过高大上的理论讨论女权，的确理论在学术交流中很重要，但是放在大众日常生活中可能就不太融合，第一大家听不懂就不会想听，第二理论有些太飘，难以落地。我觉得先摄取理论，消化后再用大白话讲出来，是更容易被接受的。
4.你如何回应"女权主义是西方舶来品、被用来破坏中国社会稳定"这一指责？
这完全是在转移矛盾，是一群人的集体逃避。女权主义是争取平权，是人类基本的诉求，所以破坏社会稳定的，怎么会是女权主义呢？难道反抗被资本无限压榨的打工人，反而是在破坏社会稳定吗？问题明明出在制造歧视、固守落后观念的行为观点，出在被父权渗透的点点滴滴上啊。
这里的“西方舶来品”可以换成很多词，比如“被资本洗脑”“恶意挑起对立”“想搞特权”等等，说白了这些都是借口，都是既得利益者为了保全自己的利益创造出来的幌子。当出现问题的时候，消灭提出问题的人，永远比解决问题更容易。
5.阶级如何影响谁能够参与中国的网络女权主义空间？
阶级影响最大的，就是女性的认知，她们并没有意识到“这是有问题”的，并坚持认为这是正确的，所以后代也需要延续这样的生活和观念。再者，她们也没有时间去思考，无论是全职主妇还是需要工作的女性，都被大量的家庭内部劳动柴米油盐占据。最后，即使意识到了问题，也无法讲出来，因为没有人会听，甚至会被攻击。
但是对于现在的网络空间，我觉得阶级壁垒已经开始被打破了，比如出现了越来越多的中老年、农村妇女在平台上发布自己的生活、讲出自己的故事，可能她们并不懂女权，但是这种普通人叙事，已经在打破原先的精英主义了。
6.你如何看待代际之间的分歧那些认为当代女权主义诉求过激的年长女性，或那些靠顺从熬过来的女性？
理解尊重。如果她可以接受新思想，或表达出理解（即使不认同），我觉得都是可以继续科普的，比如从非常细节具体的事件，从比较好接受的观点入手。如果对方态度就是很强硬，我觉得可以把时间留给自己，或更容易接受改变的人身上，没必要为了她们浪费自己的心力。
7.当平台可以在一夜之间抹去你的内容时，你如何建立并维持社群？
说实话我没有想过运营社群，一方面是没有精力，社群的管理还是挺费时费力的，另一方面我确实不太擅长这个。如果我的内容全部消失了，那我可能会重新开一个账号吧，因为在做账号的第一天，我就已经做好了被封的准备。
8.为了规避审查，你发展出了哪些策略，以迂回的方式讨论女权议题？（例如通过幽默或隐晦的表达方式）
现在的对话就是一种，之前还做过一个系列，是姨妈，妈妈和女儿三个女性之间的故事，毕竟演绎的审核更宽松，可以围绕事件讨论观点，而且内容不至于太过干巴，加上故事性会更易看下去。
现在还有很多博主把女性主义和自己擅长的领域联系在一起，比如作曲、rap或一些比较抽象的风格等等，都非常有意思。
9.你如何在内容的可及性（触达主流受众）与信息被稀释或被收编的风险之间取得平衡？
没太想过这种平衡，我的创作内容更多来源于触动我的事情，可及性相对来讲是比较容易些的，因为从一些具体的事情、新闻切入，大家很容易会有共鸣。
至于是否被稀释被收编，更多是接收者的想法，我只能尽可能通过对话、字幕写出我的观点，敏感词就用一些拼音或同音字代替哈哈哈，至于大家看到的是什么，就是观众的事了。
10.你如何回应那些将精英主义内化为通往平等之路的女性---那种认为更努力工作或出类拔萃便能免受歧视的想法？
这个就很像优绩主义，生而有特权却不自知，可能是因为习惯了这样的生活，也可能是发现了但不想被戳穿。其次呢，不管任何阶层的女性，任何领域取得顶尖成就的女性，依旧会受到男性的“教育”，谷爱凌在滑雪场被陌生人搭讪“要不要教你滑雪”，张伟丽被评论“打不过普通男性”，吴艳妮哪怕夺得金牌也依旧因为化妆被骂得体无完肤。以上只是体育界的例子，还有在各领域取得成就的女性“精英”，在采访中必然被问到的“如何平衡家庭和工作”，女演员永远比男演员承受更多的压力和审判等等等等。
出类拔萃可以让我们少一点歧视，多一点话语权，但无法从根本上解决性别不平等的问题。
11.你如何定位自己在女权运动中的立场？你认同某一特定流派吗，还是你的观点随时间有所转变？
我没有一个特定认同的流派，每个流派都有它存在的历史背景和意义，当然也有其局限性。
我的观点也肯定是会转变的，个人经历的增长、看过的书、和别人的讨论等等，都会影响我的想法，但大方向不会变。
12.在东亚语境中，意见上的分歧往往被定性为一种忘恩负义，你如何回应"女权主义是对传统不敬"这一说法？
我个人完全没有“和传统有冲突就等于不敬”这样的想法，甚至没有想到过。
如果压迫、牺牲世界上一半的群体叫做“传统”，并且还称此为“敬”，那也太荒谬了，纯粹是借“传统”之名延续枷锁。
13.推荐一本你喜欢的女性主义读物或影视作品吧！
《女性与社会权力系统》《油炸绿番茄》《她对此感到厌烦》（最近晋江封了这篇小说，那更要推荐一下了！）
采访者：Yunshu Yang
以上为为翻译版本
I’m Oolong Cocoa~ This account focuses on gender equality, unpacks everyday biases and misconceptions, and shares my real experiences from life and work. I hope to grow alongside more women. May every woman be free and ever-flourishing.
Douyin account：60194454197
1. What was your feminist awakening? When did you “wake up”?
I’ve thought about this question many times myself, but it seems there was no single “turning point” awakening; it was more of an accumulation of many small things. Looking back through old diary entries and Weibo records, I became consciously aware roughly seven or eight years ago. It started from noticing that the comment sections on certain news stories were more infuriating than the news itself, or from being shaken by things people around me said.
2. Why did you want to become a feminist blogger? What do you think is the value of feminist bloggers for the development of women’s rights in China?
It started as an outlet. At the time I didn’t have many friends I could discuss feminism with, and I didn’t know who I could talk to — but there were constantly infuriating and baffling things happening all around me. The most important thing is that the internet lets more people see these problems and realise “oh, things can actually be different” — and only from there can change slowly begin.
3. Western feminist frameworks don’t always translate cleanly — which concepts do you find useful, and which do you actively resist or reframe?
Let me use the three waves of Western feminism as an example. The first wave was mainly about fighting for basic rights — voting rights, the right to education, property rights, and so on. The second wave was about bodily autonomy and fighting for equal pay and against other forms of disciplinary discrimination. The third wave mainly introduced an intersectional perspective. The first two waves were actually quite elitist — they especially neglected women of different races, working-class women, and marginalised women, and many people even used their own awakening to criticise women who hadn’t yet awakened (this still happens today).
I think this kind of thing needs to be rethought in the present day. We need to acknowledge that women in different circumstances hold different views, and we need more pluralism and inclusivity. Also, many people today tend to discuss feminism through grand, high-brow theory. Theory is certainly important in academic exchange, but it doesn’t always fit into people’s everyday lives. First, if people can’t understand it, they won’t want to engage with it; and second, some theory floats too far above the ground to be applied practically. I think the better approach is to absorb theory, digest it, and then explain it in plain language. That would be far more likely to be accepted.
4. How do you respond to the accusation that feminism is a “Western import” being used to destabilise Chinese society?
This is completely deflecting the issue; it’s a form of collective avoidance. Feminism is about fighting for equal rights; it’s a fundamental human demand. So how could feminism possibly be the thing destabilising society? Would you say that workers resisting endless exploitation by capitalism are destabilising society? The problem clearly lies in the behaviours and attitudes that produce discrimination, in entrenched, backward ways of thinking, in the patriarchal influence that saturates every corner of life.
The phrase “Western import” can be swapped out for many others — “brainwashed by capital,” “maliciously stirring up conflict,” “seeking special privileges” — when you get down to it, these are all excuses, smokescreens created by those who benefit from the status quo to protect their own interests. When a problem arises, silencing the people who raise it is always easier than actually solving it.
5. How does class shape who gets to participate in online feminist spaces in China?
The biggest way class affects women is through their awareness. Many women haven’t realised that “there is something wrong here,” and firmly believe the current state of things is correct, so they expect the next generation to carry on the same way of living and thinking. Beyond that, they don’t have time to reflect. Whether they’re full-time homemakers or women who also work outside the home, they’re consumed by the enormous volume of domestic labour — the cooking, the daily grind. And finally, even if they do become aware of the problem, they can’t speak up, because no one will listen — and they may even be attacked for trying.
But when it comes to online spaces today, I think class barriers are beginning to break down. More and more middle-aged, older, and rural women are appearing on platforms to share their lives and tell their stories. They may know nothing about feminism, but this kind of ordinary-person narrative is already dismantling the original elitism.
6. How do you address the generational divide — older women who see current feminist demands as excessive, or who survived by compliance?
With understanding and respect. If she’s open to new ideas, or shows understanding even without agreement, I think it’s worth continuing to share and gently educate, starting from very specific, concrete events, approaching it from perspectives that are easier to receive. But if the other person is very rigid, I think it’s fine to save your energy for yourself, or for people who are more open to change. There’s no need to exhaust yourself for them.
7. How do you build and sustain community when platforms can disappear your content overnight?
Honestly, I’ve never really thought about building a community. On one hand I don’t have the energy: managing a community takes a lot of time and effort, and on the other hand I’m genuinely not very good at it. If all my content disappeared, I’d probably just open a new account, because on the very first day I started this account, I had already prepared myself for the possibility of being banned.
8. What strategies have you developed to discuss feminist issues obliquely and avoid censorship? (For example, through humour or indirect expression)
This very conversation is one example. I also made a series before — a story about three women: an auntie, a mother, and a daughter. Dramatised content goes through looser review, so you can weave viewpoints around specific events, and the content doesn’t end up too dry — the storytelling makes it easier to follow. These days many bloggers are also connecting feminism with their own areas of expertise, like composing music, rap, or more abstract creative styles — it’s all really interesting.
9. How do you balance accessibility (reaching mainstream audiences) with the risk of having your message diluted or co-opted?
I haven’t thought much about that balance. My content comes more from things that move or affect me personally, and accessibility is relatively easier because starting from specific events or news stories, people naturally find it relatable. As for whether it gets diluted or co-opted — that’s more about how the audience receives it. I can only try my best to express my views through dialogue and subtitles; for sensitive words I just substitute pinyin or homophones haha. What people ultimately take away from it — that’s up to them.
10. How do you address women who’ve internalised meritocracy as the path to equality — the idea that working harder or excelling will protect them from discrimination?
This is very much like meritocracy — born into privilege without realising it, perhaps because they’ve simply grown used to that life, or perhaps because they’ve noticed but don’t want it exposed. Beyond that, no matter what class a woman belongs to, no matter how elite her achievements in any field, she will still face men “educating” her. Eileen Gu was approached by a stranger on the slopes asking “want me to teach you how to ski?” Zhang Weili gets comments claiming she “couldn’t beat an average man.” Wu Yanni, even after winning a gold medal, was still torn apart online for wearing makeup. Those are just examples from the sports world — and then there are high-achieving women across all fields who are invariably asked in interviews “how do you balance work and family?” Female actors always face more pressure and scrutiny than their male counterparts, and so on and so on. Excelling can earn us a little less discrimination and a little more voice — but it cannot fundamentally resolve the problem of gender inequality.
11. How do you identify within the feminist movement — do you align with any particular strand, or has your position shifted over time?
I don’t align with any particular strand. Every school of thought has its historical context, its significance, and of course its limitations. My views will definitely continue to shift, based on personal experiences, books I’ve read, conversations with others: all of it shapes my thinking. But the overall direction won’t change.
12. In East Asian contexts, disagreement is often framed as ingratitude — how do you respond to the idea that feminism is “disrespectful” to tradition?
Personally, I have never had the thought that “conflicting with tradition equals disrespect”. It never even occurred to me. If oppressing and sacrificing half the world’s population is called “tradition,” and we’re supposed to call that “respect,” then that is truly absurd as it’s simply using the name of “tradition” to perpetuate chains.
13. Recommend a feminist book, film, or TV show that you love!
Women and the System of Social Power · Fried Green Tomatoes · She’s Fed Up With It (This novel was recently banned on Jinjiang, which makes it all the more worth recommending!)
Interviewed by: Yunshu Yang
Above is the translated (modified) version.
